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Arijos
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There hasn't been alot of theory discussion of late, so I thought I would introduce a little discussion. I think I am a pretty good player, but I think that one of my biggest problems when I am improvising, is that I THINK TOO MUCH!!
So, I am curious to know how much you all think while you are playing. I am not talking about remembering the chords to a song, or regurgitating someone else's solo note for note, or wondering if you are looking cool to the ladies, BUT, when you are faced with the opportunity to throw down a lead, do you THINK about what scales, notes, or patterns to play, or do you JUST PLAY?!
Example: You are playing with some friends, and the chord progression is a series of minor changes in Am. Do you contemplate which scales- Am, A dorian, G myxolidian, maybe some Phrygian-- to play over the changes, and maybe where on the neck you are going to play them, and maybe when you will throw in a sweep arpeggio of a B half diminished, or do you just let your mind go and let your fingers and ears come up with something cool??
I sometimes come out of a solo thinking that I should think less. I DO NOT IN ANY WAY THINK THAT THEORY HURTS A PLAYER, just that I would like to reach the point that I don't THINK theory while I play.
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arijos
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Total Posts: 222 | Joined Aug. 2003 | Posted on: 5:09 pm on Mar. 22, 2004 | IP
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MisterE
Advanced Member
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well, i'm not such an advanced player as you are; and i don't know much theory. But when I play a solo (usually some kind of imitation, but not note by note), I find that not thinking, just playing, creates a very "alive" solo, sounds good & as if it comes from within. However, technically, a lot more mistakes are made. When I think, I play better, no mistakes, but the feeling is a lot less.
I'm not sure, I think there'll always be some kind of trade-off.
(Edited by MisterE at 6:24 pm on Mar. 23, 2004)
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Uhm, well, it's been said to have been a bit up and down on occasion, usually the latter being the case, so that generally speaking you should put up with it or put it off entirely, yes.
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Total Posts: 393 | Joined May 2003 | Posted on: 7:25 am on Mar. 23, 2004 | IP
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liagasg
Advanced Member
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Arijos, I am on your way of thinking too. But definately, I do not think that much. I record the rythm patern of the song and then try to outline a solo that fits on the rythm. Of course I check what is the scale that fits on the song but that's not the first thing I do. I do it so I can use the whole fretboard. So I guess you should just play what sound nice to you, what fits on the emotion-feeling you want to express with your solo. Just use the theory/scales etc to expand your solo not to limit it.
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Failure is not an option!
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Total Posts: 639 | Joined Mar. 2001 | Posted on: 12:20 am on Mar. 24, 2004 | IP
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ROCK LEGEND
Full Member
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I don't think the thinking will be doing anything bad for your playing unless you make weird faces when you think. Thinking should be good unless you are such a good player you can play well without thinking but I don't really know anyone who has that much experience with the guitar.
I htinkyou should stick with thinking and playing well, rather than not htinking and playing worse than you could be.
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*^||/_-=SEAN=-_\||^*
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Total Posts: 162 | Joined Jan. 2004 | Posted on: 2:54 am on Mar. 25, 2004 | IP
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kerasakti
Advanced Member
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i agree with arijos
sometimes i have this problem too, it happens when i found a new scale or lick that i think its cool or unique, to solve this problem i practice those licks/scale with rhytm/music that i've recorded it before, so when i do an improvisation the scale just comes naturally, bec of the notes that had been recorded to my mind, so no need to think that much as you said.
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I LOVE MY MOTHER, WHAT ABOUT YOU ?
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Total Posts: 368 | Joined April 2002 | Posted on: 12:45 pm on Mar. 28, 2004 | IP
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margib
Full Member
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We like to improvise.
Good emotional loaded lines comes and goes in waves and they are recognized immediately by the other members in the band. A sort of resonance is taken place between players.
We feel and don't think at all at the wave tops and we think, searching and planning for the next move in the wave depths.
O yes, I forgot to mention that all roads to wave tops has some similarities; I look at my fret board, see some anchor positions, see and recognize (inner ear) a pattern, varying from a few notes or a full neck riff and there I go!
Sometimes I stick with one note while the progression goes on switching chords, and I load that note with emotional bends combined with right hand techniques like mutes, harmonics and feedbacks.
I must say that the more cues you got, e.g. from theory taken into practice, the bigger your chance to reach wave tops….
Well now, how is the road from top to depth? It depends:
1) You make a mistake and end up in chaos. Nothing wrong with that at all, it’s the beginning of a new order, go through it! This way of thinking will make you free and without inhibition.
2) You get bored. It is a motivation for seeking new grounds.
3) There is a musical relief or distraction going on. If you like you can take that as a new wave top of maybe another player who takes over emotional control.
Look e.g. at http://www.essentialguitar.com/
and read the topic : "One step Towards Improvising"
(Edited by margib at 11:43 am on April 3, 2004)
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Touch the Listener's Soul!
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Total Posts: 162 | Joined July 2003 | Posted on: 9:34 am on Mar. 30, 2004 | IP
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Gibby
New Here
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i would rather like to just go with the flow... i think it would give a more nicer sound. if you think a note should go here or there just do it and see if it fits.... not everythings perfect... but sometimes its pretty fun to play-a-tune you make in your head heh
(Edited by Gibby at 11:00 am on May 4, 2004)
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"to a toast for those who rock. in the words of AC DC we rock tonight to the guitar bite"
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Total Posts: 7 | Joined May 2004 | Posted on: 9:32 am on May 4, 2004 | IP
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ROCK LEGEND
Full Member
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Well thinking would definately help, but even if your not thinking, it would probably still turn out okay., i mean, u got 50% chance of hitting intervals that would sound fine.
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Total Posts: 162 | Joined Jan. 2004 | Posted on: 5:22 am on May 5, 2004 | IP
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B Trondset
Junior Member
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I'll try to think of scales and such when playing solos. However, I don't know how to use these scales so I just play. I use some lick that I've learned or made up by my self. When I face a chord progression I try to find some notes that fits, then I'm ready to play.
But that's me.
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* Heavy-Metal Jävlar *
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Total Posts: 56 | Joined Mar. 2003 | Posted on: 11:48 am on May 5, 2004 | IP
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ROCK LEGEND
Full Member
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I came back home today to find a Guitar Techniques mag (may) and in it there was a Joe Satriani interview and this question was brought up. Since im such a nice guy i shall type it out for you
'GT: What are you actually thinking when you improvise a solo?
Satch: I am not thinking... I have spent years trying not to think! That's the problem isn't it? WHen you start out you think: "should i play this" or "would it be cool if i played that". But the thing to do is not to think. Don't be judgemental at all when you're playing. When you are writing or practising, that is the time to be judgemental. Whenit comes to playing, turn the brain off - reckless abandon is the best way to go!'
So there you have it, the great Satch's own advice on our forum!
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*^||/_-=SEAN=-_\||^*
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Total Posts: 162 | Joined Jan. 2004 | Posted on: 4:11 am on May 8, 2004 | IP
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B Trondset
Junior Member
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Couldn't agree more. It's just perfect.
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* Heavy-Metal Jävlar *
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Total Posts: 56 | Joined Mar. 2003 | Posted on: 3:47 pm on May 28, 2004 | IP
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Keivalanghi
New Here
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I guess it depends on a lot of factors. Hard to believe you could be thinking of your tax refund or something. But if you were thinking (perceiving) of how your solo sounds with the song, that would make sense.
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Total Posts: 26 | Joined May 2004 | Posted on: 11:13 pm on May 29, 2004 | IP
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katarjedi
Advanced Member
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i think when i (try to) improvise. i think too much.
in a related story, my improvising ain't so hot... but i'm working on it this summer. I got back in the habit of playing a couple hours a day.
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Total Posts: 1146 | Joined May 2001 | Posted on: 2:50 am on May 30, 2004 | IP
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Ken in Phoenix
New Here
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I belong to the rock geezer club compared to about everyone else here. I have been playing extreme lead guitar for over 30 years and have been doing it professionally for over 20.
In the time I have been playing I have gone through many different approaches concerning how much attention I am paying to what I am doing at any given moment. At this point I have to agree with Satriani's statement about not thinking too much when improvising. When I start thinking about what to do next the what I am doing now stinks or at the very least suffers. If I do any thinking at all it is just to be aware of where the chord progression is going. I try to be aware of it more in the way of the sound and the direction it is going rather than what the key, the name, or designation, of the next chord is going to be.
Just because I am not thinking about it doesn't mean I'm not listening to what I'm doing. I try to listen to it as if I were not the one playing. That is not easy to do sometimes but it can certainly help me to be more melodic in my approach.
When I am just playing and not really listening is when it all tends to sound like just a bunch of riffs thrown together basically because that's what it usually is. When I really listen it is more musical in that it sounds more like it was planned out and played as written. It has melodic content. It has an intro, a verse, and or a chorus, so to speak, within the solo itself. It starts, goes somewhere, and then ends, in such a way as to tie the parts of the song that precede and follow the solo together and make them stronger. That is my goal at least. Sometimes it works and sometimes it only works after figuring it out in advance and then going for it.
That is a hard thing to explain and make sense of so I hope you get my meaning. If not let me know and I'll try to explain it again a little differently.
Ken
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Total Posts: 24 | Joined June 2001 | Posted on: 12:25 am on June 5, 2004 | IP
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dkoerber
New Here
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you should think when you practice.
If that thinking is ingrained enough there isn't really any reason to think when playing in a band situation.
Also, the question implies that you are deciding on notes by "thinking" rather than "hearing". I think this is a key distinction. You should be using your instincts, based on your hearing. When I play with a band now, I don't think at all. I'm constantly listening to my bandmates, and then I just play what i want to play..... not consciously thinking "oh, I need a certain note here" or "I should add this kind of solo here".
After 10 years of playing, it just happens naturally.
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Total Posts: 12 | Joined June 2004 | Posted on: 5:23 pm on June 5, 2004 | IP
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Arijos
Full Member
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dkoerber and Ken,
While I agree with you, I don't think it is that simple. I mean, if you know the band is playing the progression Am, Dm, Em, it is easier (and maybe more efficient) to 'think' about playing a lead line based on the Am pentatonic scale, then to just try to 'hear' the notes that sound good. Especially if you are playing fast, in which case hearing won't work at all, because by the time you hear how it sounds, the notes are long past.
In fact, while these responses are all useful and interesting, I still have trouble with the fact that if I want to play the lead from "Crazy Train" EXACTLY the way RR did, I am going to need to think about what to play. In addition, this kind of issue comes up even for simple exercises. I can play a solo based on the A natural minor scale MUCH faster if I just let my fingers fly than if I try to play an exercise where I have to follow a pattern based on a specific sequence of notes.
What it boils down to is that I am a pretty good improviser, but not a great copier, and I don't play exercises as fast as I think I should be able to based on how fast I can solo.
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arijos
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Total Posts: 222 | Joined Aug. 2003 | Posted on: 8:21 pm on June 5, 2004 | IP
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Ken in Phoenix
New Here
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The only time I ever think of whether to play in a pentatonic, minor, major, harmonic minor, or whatever key signature is when I am starting out. After that I let my fingers do the walking so to speak. This part of that listening thing. If I "think" pentatonic, or whatever scale I choose, my fingers tend to fall into one of the box positions that are always associated with that scale and the solo can easily get a lot less musical and boring because my fingers seem to want to follow the pattern position instead of flowing in the direction the music is going.
I have been playing long enough that if I want to play fast it doesn't really matter where I am on the fingerboard. The fingers just kind of know where to go when I step on the gas pedal and the motor revs up.
As far as the notes being long past when playing fast, let me see, how do I put this? For me when soloing, I am not thinking or hearing and listening to what is being executed righ at the precise moment the pick hits the strings. It has to do with hearing the music as it's coming but also being mentally (for lack of a better term) out in front of it far enough to have enough time to anticipate where I want to go and then send the fingers there to make the notes my ears are wanting to hear happen. My ears are in charge at that point and the fingers go where they tell them to. When my brain gets into that process and wants to be in charge is when the music suffers.
There is a time and use for my brain in the soloing process but it works better for me if something comes to mind that I think would be cool to, in a way, have the brain quietly suggest that idea to the ears and then leave it up to them to make the final decision whether to use it or not. All of this stuff happens in the blink of an eye, or faster.
It's kind of like a chain of command thing where the brain and the ears are my Generals and the fingers are my troops. Each of the Generals have their highly specialized jobs to do and they do them very well. But when they start to try to overstep the boundaries where their strong points lie then the troops get disoriented and slaughtered. Then the war is over and the music has died.
That may not make any sense to you but that's basically the process involved when making my guitar play a good solo.
Arijos, you mentioned that it's not that simple, well you are absolutely correct. It's not, usually. Sometimes for whatever reason things just all fall into place and the solo rips it up big time. That's usually when my brain wants to get involved and figure out what happened to make it work so well so I can reproduce whatever it was that did it to make it work that well again. "Well General Brain, it's time you took some shore leave so you don't interfere and mess things up, again."
:D
Ken
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Total Posts: 24 | Joined June 2001 | Posted on: 3:09 am on June 6, 2004 | IP
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Guiro
Advanced Member
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This reminds me of a jam session I once had with Leendert Haaksma (guitarist for Dutch Rock starlet Anouk and conservatory teacher).
He wanted me to improvise over a very basic (major type) progression. After doing that for a while he wanted to spice up things a little and he would modulate to another key every 8 bars or so.
The problem with it was, I didn't know to what keys he would modulate so I really had to listen very well to his chord progression. You immediately start messing up when you're thinking about to what key the other guy modulates. It's hard because you need to forget established patterns (scales) and just play a melody based on your inner ear.
Anyway, I think I'm a good improviser but I start messing up when I think about the lick I want to play in the next measure. I think it's the main difference between composing and improvising. When composing you need to think, when improvising you don't.
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To do, or toodeloo? that is the question.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/guiro/music.htm
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Total Posts: 624 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 4:04 am on June 6, 2004 | IP
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Little Dreamer
Junior Member
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I'm always thinking while I'm playing. That's the enjoyment of it for me - the mental challenge. People talk about playing "effortlessly" - well, maybe technique wise that would be nice, but never mentally. I think about what scale or mode would sound nice, I think about how I could do something to add variety. Basically, I'm always thinking about variety. There's nothing that bores me more than those "guitar gods" from the '60s that just get stoned and drone on for hours, basically repeating what they played in the first 30 seconds over and over, with slight variations. That's what I did for the first five years I played, and that's why I can't stand it now. If I can't think of anything new and interesting to add, it's time I shut up - the same with talking as with playing music.
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Total Posts: 61 | Joined June 2004 | Posted on: 9:17 pm on Sep. 13, 2004 | IP
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Troy Stetina 
If it sounds good, it is good.
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Amen about the boring drones... My 2 cents is that when I hit 'flow' in improv, there is no thinking. Only listening. I always describe it as feeling like surfing... which is funny because I don't know how to surf. But what I mean is, it's like I'm moving on a wave that is never in the same place (moving thru time), but always totally aware only of the present moment. Yet, things seem to work out... the phrases tie themselves up perfectly, as IF i did know what I was going to do ahead of time, set it up, then worked backwards to make it happen. But it all happens subconsciously.
That's a good improv. It's not always that transcendant though... But it sure is fun when it happens!
Troy
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Total Posts: 682 | Joined Mar. 2001 | Posted on: 7:34 am on Nov. 4, 2004 | IP
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newcastle
New Here
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I cant beleave I am going to post a reply after troy so niecly rounded it off, but I give it a try any way.
I seem to have the opposite problem when I play, in that i dont think i am thinking enough, I mean sure sometimes I can get some really nice phrases out but then other times it feels like I am an imposter pretending to play guitar, with no real clue on what I am doing or where I want the solo to go, so I suppose thinking does help, but you've just got to be carefull so it doesnt hinder you when playing.
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dave
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Total Posts: 42 | Joined Jan. 2005 | Posted on: 7:15 am on April 13, 2005 | IP
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Mattias
New Here
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I'll expand on the surfing analogy, because I have surfed, and I've actually thought about this before.
When you're surfing, if you're thinking about what you're doing with your body, or looking down at your feet, you'll never be able to ride the wave to its fullest, you'll just end up going straight in or meandering aimlessly, if you manage to stay up at all. If you look down the wave, ahead of yourself, and have the basic techniques mastered, you can really anticipate sections of the wave, and really own the wave, be creative, take advantage of what it's doing.
I think guitar is a lot like that. If you're stuck worrying about what your fingers are doing, you'll end up getting behind the beat, making mistakes, and noodling aimlessly. If you have the muscle memory in your fingers, and the sound in your head, you can really concentrate on where the music is going and what will sound really great.
Of course, I'm still working on the technique and muscle memory, especially for lead playing. But every so often, I'll find myself suddenly in that second place, and it feels GREAT! It's what keeps me going, really.
I believe you have to have a mental approach to what you're playing -- anticipate the changes, know the scale and sound you want. But beyond that, it's not really thinking, it's more reacting and creating.
What an awesome thread, by the way!
(Edited by Mattias at 10:50 am on April 13, 2005)
(Edited by Mattias at 10:51 am on April 13, 2005)
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Total Posts: 14 | Joined Nov. 2004 | Posted on: 9:46 am on April 13, 2005 | IP
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usagi
Advanced Member
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I think this concept applies to most physical activities. Bruce Lee described emptying your mind and acting without conscious thought. It's the point where technique flows into action without conscious thought, I'm going to play this now. The flip side of this I think is equally interesting. When you are in the zone, playing, surfing, fighting you can often see the moment ahead where you are going to screw up. Ozzy described the moments on stage where he knew he was going to make a mistake and couldn't do anything about it.
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Total Posts: 309 | Joined Aug. 2004 | Posted on: 5:00 am on April 14, 2005 | IP
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FX
Advanced Member
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I barely think at all while playing. I don't know alot of theory to think about anyway. I choose a scale and then I play it a little, but I dont always keep it. Sometimes I just play what ever I think sounds right and constantly change or alternate the scale.
I often find myself suprised by what I play, cuz I never really know what I'll play next
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Total Posts: 307 | Joined Oct. 2001 | Posted on: 4:05 pm on April 14, 2005 | IP
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woodshedder
Member
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I usually let my subconcious guide me and I just let my licks flow out. I just try to keep aware of what key I'm in. I always try coming up with new licks and phrases to keep my improvising fresh. I also mix up the modes with pentatonics.
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Total Posts: 104 | Joined Jan. 2005 | Posted on: 6:35 am on April 29, 2005 | IP
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Modern Rock & Metal Guitar BBS
Brain vs emotion
