| Thread Review for How to Apply Scales Over Chords & Arpeggios (Corrected) (newest post first) |
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PHoS |
Posted on 5:44 am on Feb. 15, 2002 |
Here is another good post that follows along the lines of what's been discussed here - http://www.stetina.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=241
(Edited by PHoS at 5:44 am on Feb. 15, 2002)
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ryhen |
Posted on 1:05 pm on Feb. 14, 2002 |
| Yeah, a nice elaboration of your first post, Phos!
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PHoS |
Posted on 4:06 am on Feb. 14, 2002 |
| An excellent answer!
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pickdreams |
Posted on 1:59 am on Feb. 14, 2002 |
OK, here we go...ready?
First thing you need to understand and be comfortable with is the order of chords as they occur in a major scale. If you were to build a chord from every note of the major scale(and use only notes from that scale), you would end up with something like this:
degree of chord type
major scale
1 ..........................major
2 ..........................minor
3 ..........................minor
4 ..........................major
5 ..........................major
6...........................minor
7 ..........................diminished
Keep in mind we are only building triads(three note chords) here; 7th, 9th 11th and 13th chords could also be built, but for our purposes triads will do.
With the chord outline above, let's give it a face; we'll make it a C major scale and the chords will be derived from that:
1-C......Cmajor
2-D......D minor
3-E......E minor
4-F.......F major
5-G......G major
6-A......A minor
7-B......B diminished
Cool so far? Alright, now on to a few details about chord progressions. There are generally 2 types; diatonic progressions(all chords relate to one scale, with every note IN those chords being found in that scale) and non-diatonic progressions( one or more chords NOT relating to the others).
When dealing with DIATONIC progressions, you can generally use the "one scale fits all" method because you know that the notes in the scale are found in the chords:
in C: Cmaj/Dmin/Fmaj/Cmaj C is the "1" chord,
Dmin is the "2" chord, F is the "4" chord and then back to the "1" (cmaj). Compare this with the chart at the top and make sure it clicks with you. These chords form a DIATONIC progression because the come from the same scale. By using the Cmajor scale over this progression, you'll be able to wizz along with no fear of hitting "wrong" notes. In fact, you'll also be using a new mode for every chord change without having to think about it!
(more on that later)
Now, NON-diatonic progressions. Let's say we're playing over a vamp that has these chords:
Cmaj/Fmaj/Gmaj/Bbmaj...(gay,I know)
Well Cmaj is the "1" chord, Fmaj is the "4" chord, Gmaj is the "5" chord and Bbmaj...doesn't "fit" the chord family does it? For one, there is no Bb in the C major scale. So this chord is considered "outside" the key.
Basically, you want to acommodate this chord by playing a scale that fits it. Here is where modes come in to play.
degree of mode built
major scale from it
1 ...................................major(ionian)
2 ...................................dorian
3 ...................................phrygian
4.....................................lydian
5......................................mixolydian
6.....................................aeolian(minor)
7......................................locrian
Compare this mode chart with the chord chart(the first one); it'll look like:
1-major-major(ionian)
2-minor-dorian
3-minor-phrygian
4-major-lydian
5-major-mixolydian
6-minor-aeolian
7-diminished-locrian
The chords on the left, mode that it works with on the right. Absorb and internalize!! Now that Bbmaj chord can be delt with in several ways. It's a major chord and you'll notice from the above chart that 3 modes "jive" with major chords; Ionian(major), Lydian and mixolydian.
Use any three of those modes over the Bb chord then resume using Cmajor scale for the rest and you're rockin'!
To sum up non-diatonic progressions; if you have one or more chords that are "outside" the key center, you can "tailor" your lines by using one of the modes that corresponds to the particular chord type you're dealing with. I've only given ONE example, one possibility. Hopefully this will give you some idea and maybe aswer your question!
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jbcool |
Posted on 11:27 pm on Feb. 13, 2002 |
| so what about lydian, dorian, phrygian, mixolydian,locrian? how do you use these in proggressions both as one scale fits all and and changing scales?
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pickdreams |
Posted on 4:47 pm on Feb. 13, 2002 |
You're correct; the relative minor is a step and a half (or three half steps) below the major. The one thing I caution when using this formula is to make sure the note you land on is named three ALPHABETICAL steps below the major.
See, when I've shown this to students in the past, the note that they name as the relative minor is incorrect even though the pitch is correct. Here's an example:
I asked someone what the relative minor of E major was. Their answer after using the method mentioned above was, "Db minor". This is only two scale steps below, alphabetically(E-D). The "correct" answer is C#minor.
Why is Dbminor incorrect? One reason mainly; there are no flats in the key of E major. Now if this person had kept in mind the "alphabetical" rule, he would have found the other (enharmonic) name for the same pitch he landed on.
So, even if you aren't up on your key signature knowledge(as far as sharp keys and flat keys), you'll still arrive at the right answer if you consider this simple rule!
Good luck!
(Edited by pickdreams at 6:17 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)
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ryhen |
Posted on 3:59 pm on Feb. 13, 2002 |
You make very fine tech support guys!!
Follow up question:
Is it right to say that the relative minor of a certain note is always 3 half-steps back from that note?
ex.
C major (3 half-steps back = A minor)
D major (3 half-steps back = B minor)
E major (3 half-steps back = C#minor)
F major (3 half-steps back = D minor)
G major (3 half-steps back = E minor)
A major (3 half-steps back = F#minor)
B major (3 half-steps back = G#minor)
I based this from the idea that you get from having A as the relative minor of C. Just want to make sure if this is correct.
(Edited by ryhen at 4:00 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)
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PHoS |
Posted on 3:36 am on Feb. 13, 2002 |
Yep, glad you didn't get mad about it. I've had too many people get mad for me saying stuff like that in the past.
I also agree on the naming of the notes... I chose to use his notes instead, just to save confusion, though. I'm always trying to find a balance between having everything perfect, and just having it make sense.
I saw his other post in Technique, and actually decided to include both the note names next to the letters after finishing this post. I figure it'd make it easier to understand that they're really the same thing.
Anyway, cool deal... 
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pickdreams |
Posted on 2:43 am on Feb. 13, 2002 |
Good point about the flat (- or b) indication; forgot a small-case B is a flat!
Also no offense taken on the chord naming thing; I can see how that would be confusing.
BTW I wrote the chords as Cm and Eb instead of B#m and D# because technically there is no key signature of B# or D#. This is my only issue with your post. Diatonic scales traditionally (and with good reason) contain seven scale steps that in sequence, are alphabetical. No doubling of note names occurs (B#,D,D# etc.). Of course the TONES are the same when dealing with B#major and Cmajor, but you'd be hard pressed to find a key signature for B#major in any music text or lesson method.
So, in dealing with those two chords, I decided it would be easier to relate to them "enharmonically" so that someone with relatively basic scale and chord knowledge wouldn't be confused when hunting down the notes to a B#minor scale in a text or book of scales.
(Edited by pickdreams at 3:44 am on Feb. 13, 2002)
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PHoS |
Posted on 2:08 am on Feb. 13, 2002 |
Yep, looks like it, good job and thanks!
Just one thing I want to say about the way you were naming chords above. Not everyone is aware of the chord naming system you're using. Generally, you should only use + and - signs to indicate augmented or minor, and even then I don't really like to use them like that. It creates too much confusion between musicians trying to read charts. They see a E-, and play an Em chord, instead of an Eb chord like they were supposed to, or vice versa... See my point?
Anyway, just in case someone might be wonder what E- stands for in this particular case:
E- = Eb (E Flat)
Also, as most of you should know, every note on the fretboard has two names, that's why he renamed them above. Eb and D# are the same exact note, just as B# and C are.
The chord naming system is really just my opinion, so please don't get offended, man! You obviously know your stuff, I'm just making suggestions, as well as trying to keep everything clear for everyone who might not be so knowledgable about theory. I'm definitely always glad to have another person who knows their theory around!
(Edited by PHoS at 2:10 am on Feb. 13, 2002)
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pickdreams |
Posted on 1:45 am on Feb. 13, 2002 |
| Geez, we wrote almost the same thing at almost the same time Phos!!
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pickdreams |
Posted on 1:42 am on Feb. 13, 2002 |
If the chords do not relate diatonically, meaning in the same key, then you'll most likely want to do one of two things;
1- change scales for every chord, or at least the chords that reside outside the main tonality
2- base your solo around one scale and alter only the notes that you would need to fit the new chord
In your example; C/ B#m/ D#/ Em , I'd look at it this way:
C and Em could be said to share the same key(2 actually, Cmaj and Gmaj). And B#m(we'll say Cm) and D#(which we'll call E- for simplicity) also share a key (E-maj/Cmin). So a visual layout of a solo might look something like this:
C...use C major scale
B#m(Cm)...use Cminor scale
D#(E-)...use Cminor( relative to E-major)
Em...use Cmajor
Now keep in mind, this is only ONE way of approaching this situation. I thought over more than a few while writing all this. Theory-minded people will recognize the use of Cmajor over an Em chord as being phrygian blah blah blah... I'm trying to keep it somewhat simple.
Now if none of this makes any sense or confuses the issue even more, I'd say to take the time to learn scale and chord theory in the number system(major scale- 1,2,3,4,5,6,7....major chord- 1,3,5 etc.). This is easily the best way to really see the possibilities of ANY such situation.
Hope this helps!
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PHoS |
Posted on 1:42 am on Feb. 13, 2002 |
The C major/A minor key will work fine over the C and Em triads. For B#m and D#, yes you can switch the scale you're playing in -- there is certainly no rule saying that you can't! Getting it to sound good isn't always as easy, though.
The most obvious solution would be to play in the key of D# major/B# minor over both the B#m chord, and and the D# chord. Now, you may ask why is it that you can do that. Let's analyze both the scales notes, and find out.
Notes in the scales:
B# minor - B#, D, D#, F, G, G#, A#
D# Major - D#, F, G, G#, A#, B#, D
Notice how both scales contain the same exact notes, only in a different order? It's because B# minor is actually the relative minor to D# major -- (just as A minor is the relative minor to C major).
That's just one possible scale you could choose to play over those two chords, and I only picked it because it would work over both of the 'odd chords'. Remember that (in theory) you can really play any scale that matches with the intervals for that particular chord, as long as you also match up the key (example - A with A major, A with A Lydian Major, Am with A Aeolian minor, A with A Dorian minor, etc.).
The particular scale(s) you choose to play over those chords, will determine how it sounds overall... Experiment with different ones that work, and choose the one that sounds best. Theory is a good starting point, but always let your ear be the final decision maker as to what sounds good to you.
Let me know if you have any more questions...
(Edited by PHoS at 1:48 am on Feb. 13, 2002)
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satch69 |
Posted on 11:28 pm on Feb. 12, 2002 |
hi Phos, thanx for that information, but i still have a question..
you said, that if you play in the key of C, the scales would be the following:
C Ionian Major - C Major triad
D Dorian Minor - D Minor triad
E Phrygian Minor - E Minor triad
F Lydian Major - F Major triad
G Mixolydian - G Major triad
A Aeolian Minor - A Minor triad
B Locrian Minor - B Half Diminished/Diminished triad
But suppose that i want to play a solo on a song that has the following chords.
C B#m D# Em
The scales work only for the C chord, but if i continue playing the same scale it won't sound cool on the B#m D# Em part....
so, do you have to look for another scale??
change scales in a solo (if that is possible)????
or just keep using the scale even if it doesnt fit for those chords??
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pickdreams |
Posted on 10:09 pm on Jan. 30, 2002 |
Yes Katarjedi, aug7th chords are usually referred to as altered dominant chords( 7#5, 7-5 etc.). Great for power ballads!
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Max |
Posted on 8:27 pm on Jan. 30, 2002 |
Beware of stalkers .....hehheehheehe 
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ryhen |
Posted on 8:12 am on Jan. 30, 2002 |
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA 
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Phloss |
Posted on 8:31 pm on Jan. 29, 2002 |
| Hey Phos, I would like to thank you for all your help. You site is the best, it has given me a reason to try and succeed as well as giving new meaning to my life. I could never repay you for all you have done. You are, and always will be a true hero. I love you.
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Phloss |
Posted on 8:31 pm on Jan. 29, 2002 |
oops, made a error, sorry PHos.
(Edited by Phloss at 8:32 pm on Jan. 29, 2002)
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katarjedi |
Posted on 5:56 pm on Jan. 28, 2002 |
Yo Phos I got a question...
you didn't mention dominant 7th chords... but these might be the most important 7th chords of all... the blues, for example, is ALL about dominant 7 chords....
it might be useful to add dom7 to your nifty FAQ.
also, would it be alright to think of an aug7th chord as just an altered dominant? i think it generally functions as one...
thx bro...
~patrick
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